DSG slow downshift

16757 Views 35 Replies 13 Participants Last post by thermorex, Mar 25, 2008

slimpickaus

Discussion Starter · Mar 1, 2007

I have had my new MkV GTI DSG for 3 weeks now and am generally happy with it except for one thing. Most times when I manually downshift from one gear to the next the shift takes about 1 sec which is much longer than the very fast upshifts. It's as if the gearbox is optimised for upshifts by preselecting the next highest gear and, when I tell it to downshift, it has to go to the shop, buy the required gear and fit it before changing down (OK, it's not that bad but 1 sec feels long when you are freewheeling into a corner and are waiting for the downshift to occur). This is most noticeable when downshifting from 4th to 3rd since I mostly drive around town in 4th. I have recorded the engine sound on my PPC and analysed the file with audio editing software and can confirm the 1 sec delay before the downshift is complete. Anybody else noticed this problem? Barry

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deviltailedfast

· #2 · Mar 1, 2007

Yep, same "problem" here. I've learned that the DSG is a different beast than manual. It's not that it's not ready for the shift, but that dang, or good, RPM matching. It's good for the clutch, in that it will pull off, accelerate to match spped and then re-engage with little slip, but that takes about a second on a downshift if you're not giving it gas. The main mental change that will speed up down shifting:

Wait until you're ready to accelerate. If you're in 4, and know you're going to shift to 3, wait until you're starting to gas it, in 4, _then_ hit it down to 3. MUCH faster. It accelerates the RPM match way faster because you're telling it to go fast with the gas.

Give that a shot, and let us know if you feel a difference.

jgo

· #3 · Mar 1, 2007

You should always doenshift when you are ready to accelerate. Downshifting to slow down is bad news. You are using an expensive engine and tranny to do the job that cheap brakes were designed to do. I am talking about normal driveing, not holding back on a grade.

deviltailedfast

· #4 · Mar 1, 2007

jgo said:
You should always doenshift when you are ready to accelerate. Downshifting to slow down is bad news. You are using an expensive engine and tranny to do the job that cheap brakes were designed to do. I am talking about normal driveing, not holding back on a grade.

Probably a good point, but that's not exactly what I meant:
Manual: In 4th, push in clutch, shift to 3rd, accelerate, let out clutch at RPM match
DSG: Leave in 4th, accelerate, shift to 3rd, [computer] push in clutch, clutch at RPM match

see the switch? You'd probably even accelerate while shifting in a manual, but with the DSG if you want a quick shift, you have to accelerate before shifting.

jgo

· #5 · Mar 1, 2007

The bad part is that the DSG will downshift automatically, even in the manual mode, if the speed calls for it. If you just happen to manually downshift at the same time that the processor decides to do it, you can get some really weird results like a double shift. Couple that with the fact that you have to look at the MFD to figure out what it is doing.

I like the DSG but, from a purists point of view, the manual is better suited for everything except straight line acceleration.

slimpickaus

Discussion Starter · #6 · Mar 1, 2007

Have tried accelerating just prior to the 4-3 downshift but still 1 sec downshift most of the time.
What really anoys me is that I can see the corner coming, I go off the accelerator and start to brake, at the same time getting some engine breaking in 4th, then I shift to 3rd and, for the 1 sec, the car is freewheeling (ie no engine braking with revs held constant by the computer) before the shift to 3rd. This means I have to brake a little bit harder to compensate for the loss of engine braking during that transition period. Very disconcerting.

deviltailedfast

· #7 · Mar 2, 2007

yeah, I'm with you. I had exactly the same issue, and also bitched up a storm about it when I got it. It's different, but I love it in the end. Again, it's just an adjustment to get used to. That freewheeling moment was _really_ disconcerting for me at first. Now, when I see the corner coming, I tend to downshift before I get there (a second earlier than in a manual...), or wait 'til I'm floring it out of the corner and get the super quick shift into power range.

Try it on a straight first to get used to it. Get in 4th at 2000 rpm. Give it lots of gas. Shift to 3rd. You'll feel it.

Once you get used to it, it's good for many things, not just a straight line.

Do purists still eat raw meat because that's what man did before fire? By all means, then, be a purist, but I'll take progress. Ohh, that'll make a good sig.

jgo

· #8 · Mar 6, 2007

Progress will come when the DSG manual mode is actually...manual. Right now, it is semi-manual. Add that to the fact that you have to look at the dash to see what gear you are in. Don't get me wrong. I have a DSG and I love it. I just realize that it is not perfect and there are things that could be done to improve it. They could add a sensor to the shift knob to lock out the damn auto downshifting while your hand is on the knob.

deviltailedfast

· #9 · Mar 7, 2007

Now that you mention it, does anyone know if the vagcom can program the DSG not to auto downshift at redline? That would, admittedly, be nice to have.

slimpickaus

Discussion Starter · #10 · Mar 11, 2007

I have just completed my first country run in the new GTI and made sure I covered roads with lots of curves and hills. I tried deviltailedfast's advice to give the engine a bit of throttle just before manually downshifting and it does work. Neutral or trailing throttle = slow downshifts, medium to heavy throttle = fast downshifts. This just goes to show that the gearbox mechanicals are capable of fast downshifts The response I received from VW Australia when I queried slow downshifts was that it was normal and they did state that "shifting is also optimised for longevity of components". This infers that the software is slowing the downshifts to try to avoid gearbox problems. It's interesting that the test car that I drove did not have slow downshifts. Makes me wonder whether there is a "test drive mode" for the gearbox that can be activated using VagCom. Any comments from VagCom users?

davet210

· #11 · Mar 19, 2007

Downshifts are painfully slow. When you're in a traffic situation you need to be able to punch it and have the car move immediately. The DSG is incapable of this. Even a good conventional automatic can kick down fast. The DSG is like waiting for an elevator to come down. Also, for some reason the DSG has almost no engine braking.

I traded in my 07 DSG after 2500 miles for a 6-speed for these reasons.

DSG, great for the drag strip, not so great for commuting.

deviltailedfast

· #12 · Mar 19, 2007

Totally agree with the traffic situation, IF you're in D. I rarely drive in D, mostly manual. Unfortunately, there's a spot in my commute where I have to cross 5 lanes of busy, congested freeway traffic in about 1/2 a mile. I usually throw it in S for that. Gives me quick pickup for sudden slow to faster moving lane changes.

As to the engine braking, it's identical to a manual, IF you use manual mode. Same mechanics. Engine is physically locked to wheels, and it works perfect. If you're in D, it's like an auto, no engine braking.

nitroburn

· #13 · Mar 19, 2007

davet210 said:
Downshifts are painfully slow. When you're in a traffic situation you need to be able to punch it and have the car move immediately. The DSG is incapable of this. Even a good conventional automatic can kick down fast. The DSG is like waiting for an elevator to come down. Also, for some reason the DSG has almost no engine braking.

I traded in my 07 DSG after 2500 miles for a 6-speed for these reasons.

DSG, great for the drag strip, not so great for commuting.

Isn't that partly why we have paddle shifts? As deviltailedfast pointed out, what you say is partly valid in D, but also only if you don't bother to hit the - paddle to change gear. I don't see the need to goto 6-speed based on that situation as its only change is going to be slower shifting and need to control the clutch.

davet210

· #14 · Mar 19, 2007

nitroburn said:
Isn't that partly why we have paddle shifts? As deviltailedfast pointed out, what you say is partly valid in D, but also only if you don't bother to hit the - paddle to change gear. I don't see the need to goto 6-speed based on that situation as its only change is going to be slower shifting and need to control the clutch.

I was referring to the paddles. Downshifting is too slow. Waiting for the trans to engage a lower gear. It's ready to engage the next higher gear, and takes too much time to engage a lower gear. God forbid you need to downshift 2 gears quickly.

Having a manual clutch allows you to select the gear you want (which you can actually tell without taking your eyes off the road to look at those little dash indicators), raise the revs with your right foot (which also gets past the turbo lag) and slip the clutch as needed depending on your speed and the gear selected, to move when you need to.

Don't even get me going about the automatic modes . . . D, 6th gear at 40mph. S, scream out every gear.

deviltailedfast

· #15 · Mar 22, 2007

davet210 said:
nitroburn said:

Isn't that partly why we have paddle shifts? As deviltailedfast pointed out, what you say is partly valid in D, but also only if you don't bother to hit the - paddle to change gear. I don't see the need to goto 6-speed based on that situation as its only change is going to be slower shifting and need to control the clutch.

Click to expand...

I was referring to the paddles. Downshifting is too slow. Waiting for the trans to engage a lower gear. It's ready to engage the next higher gear, and takes too much time to engage a lower gear. God forbid you need to downshift 2 gears quickly.

Having a manual clutch allows you to select the gear you want (which you can actually tell without taking your eyes off the road to look at those little dash indicators), raise the revs with your right foot (which also gets past the turbo lag) and slip the clutch as needed depending on your speed and the gear selected, to move when you need to.

Don't even get me going about the automatic modes . . . D, 6th gear at 40mph. S, scream out every gear.

I'm enjoying this thread! People who want to have a real discussion on the DSG. I can't tell you how many times I've posted the shameful difference between D and S. Granny and Andretti. I want a "normal" mode for city driving, perhaps 1.8k to 3k generally.

And I totally agree with the "little dash indicators". That's the most difficult thing with the DSG and sudden speed changes. I can't reach down and tell where I'm at. I'm looking forward to a DSG that has an H pattern. You move it to the position you want, and that's the gear you get. Barring that, there should be a huge ass number in the dash when in manual mode so I can quickly get to where I need to be.

I still love it. The technology is fantastic. It just needs some fine-tuning for people who want a little more.

P.S. A friend told me BMW's SMG has several shift modes to allow for many different driving situations. I'd think the VW computer could easily be programmed to allow for all types of driving styles and situations. Hopefully one day we'll have access to these types of settings.

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kryptonkid07

· #16 · Mar 22, 2007

Well the other day I was in regular ol' "D" and I wanted to pass this white pick up truck in front of me. I looked over and no cars were coming in the opposite direction so I was in no hurry to pass him up faster than needed. Well, I guess my foot was heavy that day because I pushed it hard. I looked at the MFD and it went from 6 to 3 in no time flat. It didn't seem slow at all. I got my tranny reflashed so I don't know if that had anything to do with it (they did it when I got my Launch Control fixed).

nitroburn

· #17 · Mar 24, 2007

Yeah, I wouldn't call D granny unless you have an extreme feather foot. The car will respond differently depending on the level of pressure on the throttle.
I love the way D drives in the city. But to each their own I guess...

I was referring to the paddles. Downshifting is too slow. Waiting for the trans to engage a lower gear. It's ready to engage the next higher gear, and takes too much time to engage a lower gear. God forbid you need to downshift 2 gears quickly.

It is not always ready to engage the higher gear. From what I understand the computer makes an assumption about the direction you need to shift, either up or down. When in 6th it will pre-select 5th. If you are in fifth and accelerating, it should pre-select 6th, if you are slowing down, it should pre-select 4th. It makes a best guess, based on the way you drive.

Also, the downshift even if it preselected 6th should not be much, if any slower then a standard manual gearbox.

Just found better info:
"Downshift is less impressive, because the gearbox need to wait for the throttle blip to match gearbox speed with engine speed. Change down a gear therefore takes 600ms. Changing down a few gears could be more complicated. The most complicated is from 6th to 2nd (both are controlled by the same clutch while the distance between the two gears is the longest). It needs to change to 5th (controlled by another clutch) temporarily before 2nd is selected. This takes 900ms."

I can't actually find any info on manual shifting speed, but I would guess it is not much if any faster.

Also, about.com states for the DSG: "the DSG performs double-clutch downshifts and can skip gears (i.e. downshifting from 6th directly to 4th, 3rd, etc)."

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yee

· #18 · Mar 28, 2007

if youre downshifting, its most likely to speed up, so i would think your foot would be on the throttle?

btw i think dsg is probably the best transmission available for a car under 70k. being able to put it into s and work the paddles is friggin amazing, though its pain in the ass when ur making a left turn and want to downshift. if only we had column mounted paddles....

dog4aday

· #19 · Mar 30, 2007

I have 2 gripes about the DSG:
1. Down-shifting while braking hard causes the car to lurch because the RPM matching doesn't seem to take into account the fact that you're breaking. This makes the car seem unstable, especially if it happens while turning.
2. While accelerating from a stop in D-mode the car seems to think that I want to gun it if I depress the throttle just a little bit more than enough to get it going. The only way to get a smooth shift is to delicately press the throttle but the takeoff is painfully slow. Seems like the throttle response isn't optimized for around the town driving.

jgo

· #20 · Mar 30, 2007

dog4aday said:
I have 2 gripes about the DSG:
1. Down-shifting while braking hard causes the car to lurch because the RPM matching doesn't seem to take into account the fact that you're breaking. This makes the car seem unstable, especially if it happens while turning.
2. While accelerating from a stop in D-mode the car seems to think that I want to gun it if I depress the throttle just a little bit more than enough to get it going. The only way to get a smooth shift is to delicately press the throttle but the takeoff is painfully slow. Seems like the throttle response isn't optimized for around the town driving.

The throttle response is adaptive. Try standardizing your driving habits. I have zero problems with mine.

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