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Discussion Starter #1
Well i just got back from one, i did some ok times for my class. Im wondering what would be the best setup for an automatic. I was using sport mode, esp off. But I was wondering if paddles would have been better. If anyone with knowledge or experience could help me I would appreciate it a lot. Also what gear do you normally use on a tight curvey track. Also i want to know what tire pressure to run, i was at 42 in front, and it wasnt enough(stock tires and rims) . I plan on doing these all the time now, it was a ton of fun.

If you've never been to one you should try it once.

And btw, i was getting the back end out on almost every corner ;D
 

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"And btw, i was getting the back end out on almost every corner"

I'm gonna have to call B.S. on that one home-skillet, ESP of or not, the most you will get is a good rear wheel hop before you totally loose it on a corner. (Or if you put in too much throttle, all you get is a heaping pile of understeer.)

To assist:

Oversteer is a phenomenon that can occur in an automobile which is attempting to turn. The car is said to oversteer when the rear wheels do not track behind the front wheels but instead slide out toward the outside of the turn. Oversteer can throw the car into a spin.

The tendency of a car to oversteer is affected by several factors such as mechanical traction, aerodynamics and suspension, and driver control. The driving technique called opposite lock is meant to cope in this circumstance.

Limit oversteer happens when the rear tires exceed the limits of their lateral traction during a cornering situation before the front tires do, thus causing the rear of the vehicle to head towards the outside of the corner. More generally oversteer is the condition when the slip angle of the rear tires exceeds that of the front tires.

Rear wheel drive cars are generally more prone to oversteer, in particular when applying power in a tight corner. This occurs because the rear tires must handle both the lateral cornering force and engine torque.

In modern race cars, especially open-wheel race cars, oversteering in high speed turns is caused mainly by aerodynamic configuration[citation needed]. In this respect, a heavier aerodynamic load on the front of the car relative to the rear causes it to oversteer. Oversteer in low speed turns is often reduced or eliminated electronically through traction control (if the sanctioning body allows their use). Nevertheless, the required front/rear balance to make the cars fast through corners is obtained by setting up the aerodynamics and balancing the suspension. The car's tendency toward oversteer is generally increased by softening the front suspension or stiffening the rear suspension. Camber angles, ride height, and tire pressures can also be used to tune the balance of the car.

An oversteering car is alternatively referred to as 'loose' or 'tail happy'.

I just had to put the "tail happy" thing, I thought it would help an otherwise boring read.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
First of all thankyou so much for answering my questions :eek:

And about the getting the loose end out on almost every corner, I watched my car also, and it was getting loose on every corner so how bout you trust someone for once and stop making worthless posts about stuff i already know

I didn't mean drifting through corners. Its kinda hard to make a post like that after being high off adrenaline
 

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It is possible for a FWD car to oversteer. I had the rear end of my Grand Am kick out from under me several times and make the car do a 270. Of course this was on a wet off ramp. So dont write him off "home-skillet".

A FWD car will oversteer if the traction to the rear tires has been comprimised. this could be a wet road surface, could be crap on the tires, could be anything...not just engine torque on a RWD vehicle. It could also be that the suspension is out of whack. all this is in your little post there. And even if it was wheel hop, that alone could provide the break in traction to cause it to oversteer.

anywhoo...

I have found that it is much better for me if I use the tiptronic mode. I normally use the stick instead of the paddles, expecially when cornering (kinda hard to downshift with the wheel cocked to the side). Plus i like to think that I know more about the current driving situation than some computer program in the transmission.
 

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lumpypumpkin said:
It is possible for a FWD car to oversteer. I had the rear end of my Grand Am kick out from under me several times and make the car do a 270. Of course this was on a wet off ramp. So dont write him off "home-skillet".

A FWD car will oversteer if the traction to the rear tires has been comprimised. this could be a wet road surface, could be crap on the tires, could be anything...not just engine torque on a RWD vehicle. It could also be that the suspension is out of whack. all this is in your little post there. And even if it was wheel hop, that alone could provide the break in traction to cause it to oversteer.

anywhoo...

I have found that it is much better for me if I use the tiptronic mode. I normally use the stick instead of the paddles, expecially when cornering (kinda hard to downshift with the wheel cocked to the side). Plus i like to think that I know more about the current driving situation than some computer program in the transmission.
Lumpy You actually helped my point in "your little post there"...thanks!

In the GTI, when you lose rear wheel traction the oversteer is translated into rear wheel hop and that is just the reality of it. If you go any further than that you will get a total loss of control and you spin out. The line in between the two is so fine that it is not always perfectly predictable. I went out to the high speed cornering track in San Bernardino a few months back when this topic was floating around just to test the GTI's limits. I did, as did a few instructors with me riding shotgun. It is extremely difficult, near impossible to get sliding understeer out of the GTI. As such I can't agree that the car was whipping around every corner.

Maduga, I know you didn't say you were drifting. You said you were breaking the rear wheels on every corner. If you meant chirping the tires that is one thing. If you meant breaking the line and getting some twist on the corner (as I took it) then you are either imagining things or just wrong. The car will not do it on every corner. If the track is coated in gas, oil and water you still won't just get the rear wheels to break by themselves. All four will lose track.

If I miss understood you, no harm no foul; It's not a personal attack. Klymos....give me a freakin' tampon already will you, I'm bleeding everywhere! :p
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thank you for the replies, I was thinking of trying tip-tronic and just keeping it in 2nd the whole time, but before i go next time im looking into tires and sway bars >:D. Next time I will be prepared

What tire pressure do you normally run though?
 

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Maduga said:
Thank you for the replies, I was thinking of trying tip-tronic and just keeping it in 2nd the whole time, but before i go next time im looking into tires and sway bars >:D. Next time I will be prepared

What tire pressure do you normally run though?
From what I understand, most autoXers running manual just throw it in 2nd at the beginning and ignore it. But... The only problem w/ manual mode is if you hit a straight long enough to get some speed, it will drop you into 3rd on its own.

It felt like this happened to me a couple times. Admitedly I was too busy trying to stay on track to check out the little number... After that, I ran in S. 43 PSI. 40 in back. Haven't played with tires much.
 

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22350 said:
lumpypumpkin said:
It is possible for a FWD car to oversteer. I had the rear end of my Grand Am kick out from under me several times and make the car do a 270. Of course this was on a wet off ramp. So dont write him off "home-skillet".

A FWD car will oversteer if the traction to the rear tires has been comprimised. this could be a wet road surface, could be crap on the tires, could be anything...not just engine torque on a RWD vehicle. It could also be that the suspension is out of whack. all this is in your little post there. And even if it was wheel hop, that alone could provide the break in traction to cause it to oversteer.

anywhoo...

I have found that it is much better for me if I use the tiptronic mode. I normally use the stick instead of the paddles, expecially when cornering (kinda hard to downshift with the wheel cocked to the side). Plus i like to think that I know more about the current driving situation than some computer program in the transmission.
Lumpy You actually helped my point in "your little post there"...thanks!

In the GTI, when you lose rear wheel traction the oversteer is translated into rear wheel hop and that is just the reality of it. If you go any further than that you will get a total loss of control and you spin out. The line in between the two is so fine that it is not always perfectly predictable. I went out to the high speed cornering track in San Bernardino a few months back when this topic was floating around just to test the GTI's limits. I did, as did a few instructors with me riding shotgun. It is extremely difficult, near impossible to get sliding understeer out of the GTI. As such I can't agree that the car was whipping around every corner.

Maduga, I know you didn't say you were drifting. You said you were breaking the rear wheels on every corner. If you meant chirping the tires that is one thing. If you meant breaking the line and getting some twist on the corner (as I took it) then you are either imagining things or just wrong. The car will not do it on every corner. If the track is coated in gas, oil and water you still won't just get the rear wheels to break by themselves. All four will lose track.

If I miss understood you, no harm no foul; It's not a personal attack. Klymos....give me a freakin' tampon already will you, I'm bleeding everywhere! :p
"high speed cornering track"??? Can you please explain?

Also, I don't put much value in your comments on this thread, sorry.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
ty for the comments, I was running 42 in front and 40 in back, but that was hot, so this time ill do it before, and the 06 GTI is GS, the main competition is Mini cooper s, but a good driver could take it
 

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PMAZ said:
22350 said:
lumpypumpkin said:
It is possible for a FWD car to oversteer. I had the rear end of my Grand Am kick out from under me several times and make the car do a 270. Of course this was on a wet off ramp. So dont write him off "home-skillet".

A FWD car will oversteer if the traction to the rear tires has been comprimised. this could be a wet road surface, could be crap on the tires, could be anything...not just engine torque on a RWD vehicle. It could also be that the suspension is out of whack. all this is in your little post there. And even if it was wheel hop, that alone could provide the break in traction to cause it to oversteer.

anywhoo...

I have found that it is much better for me if I use the tiptronic mode. I normally use the stick instead of the paddles, expecially when cornering (kinda hard to downshift with the wheel cocked to the side). Plus i like to think that I know more about the current driving situation than some computer program in the transmission.
Lumpy You actually helped my point in "your little post there"...thanks!

In the GTI, when you lose rear wheel traction the oversteer is translated into rear wheel hop and that is just the reality of it. If you go any further than that you will get a total loss of control and you spin out. The line in between the two is so fine that it is not always perfectly predictable. I went out to the high speed cornering track in San Bernardino a few months back when this topic was floating around just to test the GTI's limits. I did, as did a few instructors with me riding shotgun. It is extremely difficult, near impossible to get sliding understeer out of the GTI. As such I can't agree that the car was whipping around every corner.

Maduga, I know you didn't say you were drifting. You said you were breaking the rear wheels on every corner. If you meant chirping the tires that is one thing. If you meant breaking the line and getting some twist on the corner (as I took it) then you are either imagining things or just wrong. The car will not do it on every corner. If the track is coated in gas, oil and water you still won't just get the rear wheels to break by themselves. All four will lose track.

If I miss understood you, no harm no foul; It's not a personal attack. Klymos....give me a freakin' tampon already will you, I'm bleeding everywhere! :p
"high speed cornering track"??? Can you please explain?

Also, I don't put much value in your comments on this thread, sorry.
PM'd you
 

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GTfly said:
thats a lot of pressure. i live in the florida sun and run 35PSI in front and 40PSI in back
It's what my friends have told me to run, don't have any extended experience to work from.

I've heard many times that a FWD should run higher on the front wheels. Why do you have so much lower on the front? What's the physics beind it?

Thanks
 

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where do you live?..... were you doing the scca "solo 2: autocross.... i had some friends that have done that but i'd like to know more about it .... prices and when i can see fellow gti's there being a new fast owner myself... thanx Dale
 

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You can find SCCA solo events near you here:

http://scca.org/Solo/Solo2.asp (look at the bottom)

But look for something in your area as well. Here in Seattle there is a local club that has some extra autocross events that are not SCCA races:

http://www.wwscc.org/ (click the calendar page on the top nav)

and have fun!

P.S. GTI is G Stock
 

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22350 said:
Rear wheel drive cars are generally more prone to oversteer, in particular when applying power in a tight corner. This occurs because the rear tires must handle both the lateral cornering force and engine torque.
23350 (or anyone else who auto-x's a GTI). Would you say that using slip angle is a valid technique for getting around the corse quickly in a GTI? I've yet to auto-x my GTI (will do in mid-August) but I've some experience auto-x'ing in my old 300ZX Twin Turbo. Oversteer and trailbrake induced slip angle were the only way to hustle the Z around the course quickly. From what you're saying, it looks like those technique will only cause me wheel hop (I'm VERY familiar with that from drag racing) and I'm going to have to relearn everything to be fast in the GTI.
 

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I've been racing professionally for over 20yrs. and I haven't (more importantly wouldn't want to) rely on something called "slip angle". That would be like trying to rely on something like Ackerman principal to learn how to drive (look it up if you feel like wasting your time). All you need...

VISION
CONCENTRATION
SMOOTHNESS
AWARENESS
ANTICIPATION
CONSISTENCY

...and most importantly FEEL.

Science is for the engineers, feel is for the drivers.
 

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Interesting...during my instruction sessions with Tom Berry, he instructed that "to go fast you'll need have about 12 to 14% slip angle while cornering..."

Granted he drives a Vette and I was driving a Z32 at the time. Sounds like a practice I don't need to apply in the GTI.

Thanks for the advice!

PMAZ said:
I've been racing professionally for over 20yrs. and I haven't (more importantly wouldn't want to) rely on something called "slip angle". That would be like trying to rely on something like Ackerman principal to learn how to drive (look it up if you feel like wasting your time). All you need...

VISION
CONCENTRATION
SMOOTHNESS
AWARENESS
ANTICIPATION
CONSISTENCY

...and most importantly FEEL.

Science is for the engineers, feel is for the drivers.
 
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